What are the best novels about infidelity? Ask Penguin with Sophie Mackintosh
What's the difference between flash fiction and the short story? Why are we drawn to literature's most flawed characters? And what would be the ideal fictional world for adulterers?
On this episode of Ask Penguin, we're answering your questions with our best book recommendations and talking to Booker Prize- longlisted novelist Sophie Mackintosh about her new novel Permanence.
The book follows Clara and Francis – a couple in love, but in secret. When they wake in a strange city, realisation dawns that they can finally be together. But as they move between this world and their ordinary lives, cracks begin to show, and they are forced to ask - how long can their love survive?
Sophie Mackintosh is the author of four novels, including The Water Cure and Cursed Bread. She has been longlisted for the Man Booker Prize and the Women's Prize, has won a Betty Trask Award, and has been selected as one of Granta's Best of Young British Novelists. She has been published in Granta, The White Review, and TANK magazine among others.
Listen to the episode and subscribe to Ask Penguin wherever you get your podcasts.
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Episode Transcript
Rihanna Dillon: Hello and welcome to Ask Penguin, the podcast about books and, of course, the people who write and publish them. I'm Rihanna Dillon and this week I'm joined by Sophie Mackintosh. Sophie Mackintosh is the author of four novels, including Cursed Bread, for which she was longlisted for the Women's Prize, and The Water Cure, for which she was longlisted for the Booker. She was also selected as one of Granta's Best of Young British Novelists in 2023. Her new novel Permanence is an unapologetically romantic modern love story with a striking twist. Clara and Francis are in love, but nobody knows it. For months, they've been slipping away from their respective lives, sharing sweet, stolen afternoons in anonymous hotel rooms. Until one day, they wake up in a bedroom neither of them recognizes, with no memory of how they got there. This is a story that asks, "How do you know when you've found true love? How much would you sacrifice to keep it? And how long can you stay in paradise before the cracks start to show?" Sophie, huge congratulations on the book and welcome to Ask Penguin.
Sophie Mackintosh: Thank you so much, Rihanna. It's lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.
Rihanna Dillon: Permanence is such a gorgeous book. I loved it. So, I devoured it immediately. And it is built on such a great concept, and also quite a satisfying one to explain to people as well when you're sharing the story. I alluded to it in the introduction, but what can you tell us about the world that your protagonists Clara and Francis inhabit without giving too much away?
Sophie Mackintosh: Um, I kind of think of it as like a Disneyland for adulterers. So they are two—a couple who's been having an affair, and then they wake up in this magical city. And in this city, they can be together the way they've never been together before. And essentially all they have to do is be in a relationship together and be in it openly and have fun. Um, and I kind of thought about the city, I guess, as every romantic place I'd ever been. Like, kind of what would be your dream holiday in the most romantic setting possible? And yeah, given the kind of—the context of what's happening, that they've never been able to be together before, it has like this really magical air to it.
Rihanna Dillon: I really want to delve more into that later because I feel like everyone can sort of project their own romantic places onto this city. But where did the idea for the novel come from in the first place?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think I was thinking a little bit about relationships as spaces. I was interested in exploring sort of parallel worlds or even kind of afterlives. I've always been drawn to like dystopian worlds, speculative worlds, and I was wondering about a world that wasn't so much futuristic as a world that was, yeah, like more kind of a magical space. So something a bit more magical and, yeah, thinking about, you know, every relationship is its own world as well. Every relationship has its own space and language even, um, and so actually thinking about how to make that literal just felt really fun.
Rihanna Dillon: Yes.
Sophie Mackintosh: And it was really fun.
Rihanna Dillon: It is really fun. It is really fun. And what kind of drew you to that world of infidelity? Because it is—it's all around us. We all either have been involved in it in some way ourselves, know people who have, friends, family members. It really is—we're kind of always at the heart of infidelity in some way or another.
Sophie Mackintosh: I think I love the drama of infidelity narrative. Like this—it's kind of like a normal relationship but heightened so much. Um, I think I'm a huge romantic and anything involving like peaks and troughs and like betrayal is just, you know, so compelling to me as an author. And I was thinking with the city about secret relationships in general and it felt easiest to kind of have that, I guess, concept of it being a place for adulterers. Um, it just felt like a kind of really fitting internal logic and made everything a little bit more simpler as well.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah.
Sophie Mackintosh: And I think there's something about a relationship that exists in the shadows. Um, again, it's just so kind of romantic. Um, even but also at the same time, you know, the paradise can kind of feel like a prison. And that's something I really wanted to explore in—in Permanence.
Rihanna Dillon: That's really interesting you say about it being a prison because some—I guess sometimes love itself can feel a bit like that. Um, we sort of—we romanticize romance. Um, but what are you trying to say about those romantic relationships and the reality of them?
Sophie Mackintosh: I don't want to be like a cynic about it. Um, I know it's quite—it's quite easy to read the book as, you know, if you spend time with someone you get to know them you end up not liking them or the cracks will always appear. And I do think that's true, but they have a lot of fun together in the novel. Um, I think it's more what happens to a relationship when you give it space, um, and when you give it room when it hasn't had room before. Because actually like they've both kind of put a lot of—put up with a lot of harm from each other or have kind of hurt each other. And what happens in a situation then where you have time to maybe think about that and to act upon it?
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah, that idea of like sort of always being on your best behavior in these—because these moments are almost stolen, right? That they before they get to the city. And so they only ever see a—a slice of each other. And then the whole idea is that they see all of each other and what that looks like. And I guess there is an element of us thinking kind of almost going to the negative, like oh the—we want to—there are all these parts of ourselves that we should keep hidden. But if you love someone, they would accept you as a whole. Um, so where did you kind of draw inspiration for those sort of those more hidden parts of ourselves that you think we should bring to the fore perhaps?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think I was interested in thinking about the things we really take for granted and those everyday things which like you said maybe we don't want to show those worst side of ourselves or even like the kind of boring side of ourselves um too soon. But I think if that's kind of been off-limit as well there's um something quite precious about those moments. And I think there's—there's precious about those moments um generally. I was reading Annie Ernaux at the time and her book Simple Passion and she kind of in massive detail, you know, recounts all this very mundane details of waiting and, you know, it's excruciating. Um, but it also has a kind of air of magical—a—an air of magic to it because if you kind of just do everything right or you don't step on the cracks on the pavement or something, um, you'll kind of make um the impossible happen.
Rihanna Dillon: Um, one of our listeners, Lottie, would like to know what permanence means to you in your own life and why did you choose that word for the title of your novel?
Sophie Mackintosh: Oh, that's a great question. Why I chose—I chose it for the title of my novel because the working title was Object Permanence. So I was—that's the concept of objects out of sight still exist. And that kind of felt like the foundation of their entire relationship, that even if there's no proof, if no one else sees it, they have to believe in it, they have to believe it's there. So that kind of was something I really clung to doing the process of reading—of writing it, that idea of like a kind of central thesis of the novel. And permanence to me, I don't know, I don't believe in forever necessarily. Um, I do believe in love. Um, but I think I do believe in those little everyday joys that they do enjoy in the novel, like making a meal with someone, um, being able to go about like the quiet moments of your day with someone. I think that's really special.
Rihanna Dillon: What are the—some of those quiet moments?
Sophie Mackintosh: I was like doing laundry. I don't know, like going to—going to the coffee shop and having a coffee or just having like a talk before bed or something. Um, brushing your teeth together.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah. There is something really intimate about that. Um, what do you think about the way that we maybe feel the need to kind of fill our relationships with talk or there's a pressure to do that and why does Permanence sort of shy away from that need?
Sophie Mackintosh: There's a lot that can be unsaid. Um, sometimes it's also really hard to speak about the things that are important. I think one of the favorite parts actually in Permanence, even though there's not like a huge amount of dialogue, is that I really loved writing conversations between them because often it was a con—well, often—usually it was a conversation they'd never been able to have. Yeah. And so especially in the first big conversation they had where kind of everything gets put on the table in a way that maybe um Clara then has been wanting to do for months to actually have it all out on the table and was just like really exciting to write.
Rihanna Dillon: Um, I think what I loved so much about the world of Permanence is just how visual it was and I was completely immersed from the first page. So how did you sort of build your world? Thinking about—we talked to another author who was talking about the geography of her books. I was just wondering about the geography of yours. Did you sort of have like a—a blueprint of, you know, where they wandered—the—because it is almost like a map that you describe.
Sophie Mackintosh: I was considering like maybe drawing a map because there's a part in the novel where Clara draws a little map. Um, I could see it quite visually in my head, but it's kind of a composite of different places and quite a small city. But I was thinking like Marseille has bits of various Italian cities in it, um, just yeah kind of gardens and squares, almost like a postcard I guess as well. Um, but yeah I definitely thinking about it visually was—is important to me and it's kind of just how I write often. I made a Pinterest board as well.
Rihanna Dillon: Oh did you?
Sophie Mackintosh: I actually love doing a Pinterest board and it always makes me feel really basic, um, but I think—
Rihanna Dillon: No! It's like a mood board, right?
Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah! But I think it really helped me to kind of go in and just like look at um, yeah all these kind of snippets of different cities and like snippets of moments of people like again like cooking a meal together or walking hand in hand or something.
Rihanna Dillon: Were there sort of architects that you were inspired by or when you're sort of describing the buildings because we are—you kind of are talking about like the foundations, you're talking about like things like the actual materials cracking in parts. But what were you imagining architecturally?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think architecturally I was imagining maybe somewhere like Prague, like somewhere like very quite like grand, um, like really tall apartments with little fancy balconies and stuff. Um, yeah.
Rihanna Dillon: I was—I think for me it was maybe like a bit of Paris, a bit of like Mediterranean holidays, but also there was something of like Philip Pullman in this as well in that sort of other world, that Cittàgazze was how I was sort of picturing it which is another not real world but feels quite real when you read it.
Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, I think definitely Mediterranean and like lots of kind of pastels and like saturated colors basically.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah, like the sky—like tell me about the skies and—and the flowers as well, like how nature kind of creeps in to all of this, the kind of more man-made things.
Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, so the sky I—I kind of left it ambiguous as well whether the sky is a fake sky or a real sky but it, you know, it adjusts to the mood. Um, so they have these incredible sunsets but they just fall down like a blind. Everything is just a little bit artificial and like gorgeous but just not quite real. I think I was thinking about um The Truman Show.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah, The Truman Show is a great—like that came up in our conversations around Permanence.
Sophie Mackintosh: I remember describing it to my agent before I was like, "Truman Show meets like Simple Passion."
Rihanna Dillon: Perfect.
Sophie Mackintosh: Meets Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah, yes! There is definitely an element of that as well. And there is something which is kind of—well I suppose it lends itself especially with Eternal Sunshine, but that dream-like quality. You kind of have this—you tread this brilliant line between really vivid descriptions but also there's like a sort of haziness to everything as well. So what sort of language were you using to try and evoke that?
Sophie Mackintosh: I'm quite a redrafter, so I kind of any image I have has probably been gone over a lot. Again like going back to idea of being a visual writer I was just trying to really think about how it felt, how it like looked and smelled and to try and get a kind of lushness and really capture like the textures of the city. Like I wanted us to kind of feel like we were there with Clara and Francis and also at the same time giving room to put our own version of the city onto it, you know, like to kind of make our own paradise, but yeah.
Rihanna Dillon: Do you think they always have to be—like when you were thinking about the inspirations, were they always romantic places that you were thinking of or ones that you had personal connections with or were they sort of places that you'd like to go or, you know, have just seen pictures of?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think I was drawing on places that I had—had been or places I um had seen, but when I was doing earlier drafts of the novel I was thinking a bit more as like a—a wilder place, like more forested, more rural and how that would like kind of change the experience I guess. It wouldn't be so much of a city but be more of like a cabin in the woods um and encounter some of the people. But yeah just went for city in the end.
Rihanna Dillon: I loved it. Um, and it also—you mentioned speculative, it kind of being speculative and it falls under the category of speculative fiction. And there is a bit of a debate around what that term means. What does it mean to you?
Sophie Mackintosh: To me, I think it means freedom and having, you know, the—the free reign to play around a bit. Um, I really enjoyed the freedom in this novel of not having to stick to reality and being able to be able to create my own internal logic is always really appealing to me. Um, but not having to stick to a kind of dystopian futuristic mode was also um really helpful I think because not having to explain um the rules of the city or have the rules of the city happen because they're kind of um manifested by desire itself as opposed to thinking of like an external event. Because I've—I've usually written novels where there has been like an external event or the world has changed in some way. Um, and yeah so not having to do that was great.
Rihanna Dillon: Um, what sort of draws you to that dream-like atmosphere then if you're—where the rules don't exist, where anything could happen, you don't have to explain it away?
Sophie Mackintosh: I just think it's so permeable and there's so much possibility for where we can take a story. Um, we can explore things I guess that we experience um in real life but we can do it in a way that just goes beyond real life a bit and pushes that boundary. And I think for Clara and Francis in this unreal city, you know, it's not all Disneyland for adulterers and having lovely time, like the kind of supernatural elements of the city so to speak also test them and, you know, bring up issues from their relationship, the real relationship and, you know, take it in some quite nightmarish and menacing directions as well. And I think that's not something I would have been able to do without that speculative mode.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah. Um, we have a question from a listener, Sarah Lynn, who is sort of in that vein wants to know, do you plan all of that ambiguity or do you sort of just let it naturally happen in the process of writing?
Sophie Mackintosh: I let it naturally happen in the process of writing I think. Um, there is a certain amount of planning, but I'm quite happy to just go with the tangents and go where my brain is taking me to be honest. It's funny because it's my fourth novel and I feel by this stage I'm like, oh yes this is kind of my—this is how I write, even if I want to write something specific I'm probably going to make it ambiguous and sort of hazy even without realizing it at some point.
Rihanna Dillon: Are you ever surprised like where your brain takes you? Do you sort of look back after a day's writing go, "Blimey, I didn't know we were going to end up there"?
Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, I think part of the joy of writing is how it can surprise you all the time and I really hope it doesn't stop surprising me. Um, in kind of something I've been working on recently I just remember thinking, right it's like definitely about this thing and then coming to sort of the halfway point and being like, it's actually about something completely different underneath and then being like, well do I just sort of roll with it or do I force it back into the original idea?
Rihanna Dillon: Do you always just roll with it? Do you ever force it back?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think it's important to roll with it and just at least see where it goes and I always think like I can just roll it back if that is not working. Um, but it's not very efficient.
Rihanna Dillon: Um, do you have like a favorite novel that falls under that umbrella of speculative fiction?
Sophie Mackintosh: Maybe not so much the speculative, but The Magic Toyshop by Angela Carter I always think of as, you know, something that either toys with magic elements and has this atmosphere that I always have really admired. Um, you know, it's—it's such a—an amazing exploration of like girlhood and like violence as well and, you know, you're never sure what's real and what's not real.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah. That's a nice—that's a little recommendation for free there. Um, I remember when we interviewed Emily Henry we were like talking about um writing sex scenes and she was like, "You just have to like close your eyes, it's like running down a hill, just kind of do it and it's done sort of thing." Um, how—when you're talking about like the physicality of desire, the sexual side, how interested were you in writing those sorts of scenes?
Sophie Mackintosh: I find them really hard. Yeah, I think running down the hill is really good way to describe it. I think I find it just really hard to not think my mom and dad are going to read this. Um, but you know I—I think I could have put more in in Permanence to be honest because it's obviously such a massive part of their relationship and I think it's like a prudish impulse in me that I don't enjoy that I'm like, oh I'd rather like have the curtain fall and just like assume they're having really good sex behind it. Um, I found editing them just painful because you know you're getting notes back on it and you're thinking like "ah" like sort of feel like directing a film scene or something. Like does this work with their elbows like this or—um, but yeah I think I—I don't enjoy writing them but I do enjoy like sex as a kind of as a marker for change and as a dynamo within the text. It's just I'm just yeah too prudish about writing them.
Rihanna Dillon: I think that's fair enough. It's your book.
Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah.
Rihanna Dillon: Um, that's interesting you talk about like directing. Are there any other of those sorts of scenes where you feel like a director almost where you're visualizing it—are you sort of ever like apologetic towards your characters like, "I'm sorry I'm making you do this" or anything like that?
Sophie Mackintosh: Um, I think any dialogue I'm always thinking of it in—in that sense and especially because you end—I feel like I end up tweaking all my dialogue anyway back to try and make it um sound more like a conversation or give the correct information. I suppose when you're putting your characters through so much as well because they do go through a lot in Permanence, I do feel sometimes sad for them. Which is silly because they are—you know they do my bidding. They're not real.
Rihanna Dillon: Um, also when you're describing your characters because there is a lot of really great physical kind of tactile descriptions especially maybe when Clara is looking at Francis. Um, when they—when your characters come to you are you sort of building them as they go? Are you sort of like putting I don't know imperfections there or do they—are they there already kind of fully formed?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think they're definitely there's a process of iteration like with anything I do writing wise. Like everything is so up for like change and debate and just fleshing out generally. So I always have like this idea that's kind of it feels like their core or something and then as the book goes on I have more of an idea of them. Like yeah, but I think with looking at Francis physically I—I feel like as me as the writer I came to know like him as a character through the other character, through Clara's kind of eyes. It always kind of like a really useful way to think about it actually.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah. Do you have like when you're writing do you have like a—like a type? If we're talking about like romantic desire as a writer and, you know, they do your bidding, are you writing the sort of person that you would want to meet or fall in love with or are you writing someone very specifically for Clara?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think yeah I don't think I have a type. Um, but I guess looking back at it they're both quite like classically good looking I suppose I was like Francis is like tall dark and handsome and I was like how original.
Rihanna Dillon: I know but it's a stereotype for a reason right? Like we're never going to say no to that. Um, one of the motifs that comes out throughout the book is the still life with cherries and mouse which follows Clara and Francis kind of throughout. What was the inspiration for that painting and how does it work throughout the narrative? What's its role?
Sophie Mackintosh: So it's a painting—um well it's not a real painting, but there is an artist called Clara Peeters who painted still lives and I saw one of her paintings and was just utterly enraptured by it. She was painting in the 17th century and I was trying to find out more about her but there's not like a great deal known about her but her still lives are incredibly detailed, incredibly lush, um often feature um food you know like—like almonds and cherries and so it was quite fun to think of an imaginary painting loosely based on her work and um yeah the painting itself becomes a kind of portal I think. It's something that can not something that takes them back to the city but it's something that allows them to like step back into a previous version of themselves, like something that just really holds a lot of memory. And at the same time it also holds this unknown message of the painter like because nothing is known about the story behind the painting and maybe there is no story maybe it's just like some beautiful objects that have been painted with care, um but objects are such an important part of the novel too like the power of objects as well to be like these portals to hold so much emotion or to symbolize something. Um, so it just yeah kind of worked like that for me.
Rihanna Dillon: So Clara the artist was the naming inspiration then for Clara the protagonist?
Sophie Mackintosh: It was actually a coincidence but it was kind of like it felt very like a good coincidence.
Rihanna Dillon: Perfect! Perfect coincidence. Um, now before we answer some more listener questions, it's a big year for books. We're celebrating the National Year of Reading, which is a massive campaign designed to ignite or reignite people's passion for reading and books. So we wanted to ask you, which book sparked your love of reading?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think the first book I remember being obsessed with like was Jane Eyre. Like I was totally totally obsessed with it. And I think I remember my granddad giving it to me and thinking this looks really boring. Um and then starting to read it and just being completely, yeah obsessed.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah. Um, what is your favorite habit to fit reading into your life?
Sophie Mackintosh: I try and read first thing, even if it's just like five minutes, instead of going on my phone because it's really easy to go on my phone so I just try and have my phone not handy and a book handy.
Rihanna Dillon: It's a weird question, but do you—do you just—like does your alarm go off and you immediately reach for a book? Or do you like go and do your ablutions and then come back to bed with your book? How does it—
Sophie Mackintosh: Normally I would just say to my boyfriend to make me a cup of tea and grab the book so I wouldn't have—ablutions after.
Rihanna Dillon: Nice. Um, and finally what are you working on next?
Sophie Mackintosh: Um, I'm working on some short stories, but I'm also, you know tentatively working on a new novel which is really fun to think about something new but it's like super early, but um yeah.
Rihanna Dillon: That's exciting! How long does it take for you to sort of shed your old book? Like the last book and the last characters.
Sophie Mackintosh: It really depends because I feel like with Permanence I just I found it really hard to let go of it because I think I enjoyed writing it so much and, you know, I had a really great experience writing it especially the last few months. It actually felt like falling in love. But um which sounds really cheesy. So when it was done I felt really sad because, you know, I had this um project that I was just so happy to be working on. Um, so the aim is to always get back to that place and to find like that magic in a new book.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah, that's really lovely. Sophie Mackintosh's Permanence is out now and lucky for us Sophie is sticking around to answer some listener requests for book recommendations.
[Interlude/Theme Music Plays]
Rihanna Dillon: Now joining me and Sophie are our Penguin colleagues, Derek Owusu and Zainab Juma. Hello!
Derek Owusu: Hello.
Zainab Juma: Hello.
Rihanna Dillon: Thanks for coming back! Um, regular listeners of the podcast will already know Derek from our Best Books of 2025 episode or the Latitude special, um and will also remember Zainab from our Penguin 90th Birthday special with Kate Mosse. And it's safe to say that you are both massive fans of Sophie's writing. It feels weird to ask you that in front of Sophie, but I know individually that you really are. It's a good thing we said yesterday. [Laughter] Um, so our first listener question is from Jenna, and she says, "I loved Cursed Bread, Sophie one of your books, and adore fiction that takes inspiration from bizarre events. What book would you recommend in this same vein?" Derek, do you want to kick us off?
Derek Owusu: Yeah, I have two. One is The Glutton by A.K. Blakemore, um which is about a historical figure called Tarrare. And he basically just had this insatiable appetite where he was just always hungry so he ended up eating everything kind of becoming a showman—like he was kicked out by his family because his family couldn't satisfy his appetite and he kind of becomes a showman where he starts just eating random things: live animals, cats, dogs—like seriously. Like um—rocks. It's quite a sad life that he leads actually. But Amy um kind of really um brings him to life in the books, really interesting. Um, so that's The Glutton. And the second book is a non-fiction book called Awakenings by Oliver Sacks, which I believe was turned into a film as well. About a phenomenon I can't remember the scientific name for it, but it's kind of like this sleeping sickness where around the 1920s, people just started becoming very lethargic, dizzy, and then some years later some people just went into kind of like a catatonic state where they couldn't move or their mouth was like just stuck open and they just couldn't do anything. Wow. And still to this day they don't know exactly what caused it.
Rihanna Dillon: Oh no! I thought you were going to be like, "And it was solved!"
Derek Owusu: No, no, no, they still don't know. At first they thought it was linked to the Spanish flu but now they kind of that's disputed so they don't know what caused it and why it just kind of went away. But it was a global thing that happened, yeah.
Rihanna Dillon: Wow! Both great recommendations. Thanks Derek. Sophie, what about you?
Sophie Mackintosh: Um, I would have to go for The Mercies by Kiran Millwood Hargrave, which is a really beautiful tale about an isolated community um in Norway um where all the men die on a fishing accident in the 17th century and only the women are left and yeah kind of like the tensions that arise in this context.
Rihanna Dillon: Gorgeous! Thank you. Zainab, did you have one for this?
Zainab Juma: My head just kept going to like Golden Age 50s-60s science fiction. Um, so books like The Man in the High Castle or Invisible Man and I just there is there is something about that particular era of sci-fi that is so utterly grounded in almost uncomfortable familiarity that almost feels like they are based in bizarre truths. So that era basically anything.
Rihanna Dillon: Also kind of speculative fiction which we were talking about earlier.
Zainab Juma: Yeah! Perhaps that's what put me in mind of it.
Rihanna Dillon: The next question is from Madeleine: "What is one book that you would read over and over and over again and why?" Zainab?
Zainab Juma: It is A Single Man by Christopher Isherwood. Um, it has so many things going for it: the first being that it is thin! It's—it's a great like read in one sitting book. Um, it is also so remarkable for its ability to describe love in its absence. And it has one more thing that I really love in a book which is that it takes its time and then as you approach its ending it hurtles you into this state of shock which makes it actually quite a sort of a relaxing read for a little bit—emotionally devastating but relaxing and sort of placid nonetheless, but still gives you this big punch at the end which I really love. It's—it's the book of my heart.
Rihanna Dillon: So Zainab loves being punched by books. That's what I've learned so far. Sophie?
Sophie Mackintosh: Um, I would go for A Heart So White by Javier Marías, and it's so—I just feel like there's so much in that book that I—I mean I kind of do reread every year or so and I feel like I get so much out of it every time. And it's funny because the first time I read it, like it took me about till halfway through for things to really click because I was like what are all these scenes that don't seem to have that much to do with each other and like why does the—like why do we keep going over and over the same ground and then I was like oh it's like a puzzle! It's a beautiful puzzle and then everything kind of clicked for me and then I was just absolutely obsessed. And I think yeah on like a sentence level and a craft level as well it's just so totally intriguing and so unique as well. Like I've really never read another book like it so far. So it follows the narrator who is a newlywed and it kind of just basically follows a year in his life but underneath it all there's a really dark family secret and through these like various scenes which are almost like set pieces like we kind of get to a closer understanding of this underlying like terrible family event but also makes you think a lot about marriage and love generally and, you know, how do we know the people we love, how—how well do we know them and do we have to know them?
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah. That's a great one. That's a great recommendation. Derek, what about you?
Derek Owusu: I found this question really difficult.
Rihanna Dillon: Did you?
Derek Owusu: Yeah because you don't reread books! I do reread books! My favorites. Yeah, yeah, if I really like it I'll reread. Um, so I have kind of, yeah two answers. The first is sorry very boring but it's The Great Gatsby which I just read over and over again.
Rihanna Dillon: It's a classic for a reason!
Derek Owusu: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean and once I mean the story's okay but the just the language, you know, I kind of I read it in the same way I listen to music for like the melody but the because the music is the writing is so rhythmical it's so evocative it's so beautiful that I can just yeah I think I've read it so many times. Sometimes, you know, I just pick it up and just read a chapter and then just put it down again.
Rihanna Dillon: For inspiration or just to like get a bit of—is it like nourishment?
Derek Owusu: Yeah it's like opening the fridge just taking a grape out and then closing the fridge again. Do you know what I mean? That's what it feels like, yeah. Um, and the second book is Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison which is just um just an incredible novel and I just I always find something new in it when I read it when I reread it again. Um, I mean he was a just a genius, you know, and he only wrote one novel and he spent a very long time writing it as well most often. So yeah probably those, yeah. The Great Gatsby and Invisible Man.
Rihanna Dillon: Next question is, "If you could befriend a book character who would you pick?" I feel like this is the most impossible question. Right? Like they're all our friends! No they're not! Oh they're all—but you like being punched in the face apparently by a book. Yeah what jumped out for you Sophie? Do you want to kick us off?
Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, I went for Morvern Callar from Morvern Callar just because I thought she would be like quite good fun. Yeah she would be. But also, you know, like quite—I was trying to not do spoilers but I was like, you know, quite a dangerous character but not really a dangerous character. I don't know. I think we'd have some good adventures basically.
Rihanna Dillon: You would! That's such an interesting shout because it's like is she determining her life or is life sort of determining her she's just sort of going along with it? Remind us of the author.
Sophie Mackintosh: Alan Warner.
Rihanna Dillon: Also a great film.
Sophie Mackintosh: Yes, amazing film.
Rihanna Dillon: Great soundtrack. Yeah, really good film. Zainab?
Zainab Juma: Every time I thought of a character that I've read as an adult I was like, "Yeah but like not for more than half a day." Um, because most I think most characters in adult fiction certainly the stuff that I read are emotionally exhausting for very good reason because otherwise they don't drive much forward right? Um, so I I delved back into childhood and the answer had to be Mildred Hubble from The Worst Witch. Great one! Great shout. Because like the class clown, mildly unfortunate, but also totally misunderstood and it's not her fault because she's just trying to do things her way. And who amongst us actually wants to leave our cat behind when we go on a trip? Sure you sneak them in your bag and steal kippers from breakfast to take down to them by a boat. It's just reasonable behavior! And she rescues people! All the time! She has crumpets by a pond with a frog wizard man. What a great time that sounds like! I know, so fun. Mildred Hubble's a really good shout. Derek?
Derek Owusu: Um, again I picked two. So the first one is a character called Zaphod Beeblebrox from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I think he'd be a good time! But again not more than half a day, right? Yeah, exactly he does become um insufferable. Um, and the second would be Lee Scoresby from His Dark Materials. I think he'd be a great to hang out with. That's such a—why Lee in particular? I mean he's absolutely one of my favorite characters. Yeah I think because he's just so likeable. Um, kind, he's very kind, yeah exactly. Um, this kind of this avuncular figure like he'd look after you and give you wisdom and what not but also have fun as well, you know, and he obviously comes across quite hot as well so—
Rihanna Dillon: Doesn't he? I'm so glad you've said that. I thought that we were communicating just then okay cool.
Zainab Juma: I always had a massive crush on him even though he was like a much older character when I—but yeah like you say he was and also his dæmon is—is it Nestor or Hester? It's Hester isn't it? His dæmon is Hester who is a hare—and they just seem like such a lovely partnership.
Derek Owusu: They do, yeah exactly.
Rihanna Dillon: I think going back to childhood is a really good one I think you would have such a fun day out with William from Just William. Yeah! Just be naughty but he always just manages to like worm his way out of it. It's a bit Mildred Hubble. Sophie, you write a lot of short stories and you also you were talking about you enjoy reading them as well. Um, this reader is looking for a short story collection which is a must read.
Sophie Mackintosh: I always recommend Sudden Traveler by Sarah Hall. Um, I just think it's really slim but every story is just like so brilliant. Um, yeah the stories are just every one is so brilliant in its own way and really different as well. It's a huge range.
Rihanna Dillon: What's the difference between flash fiction and short stories?
Sophie Mackintosh: I think flash fiction's like really short, maybe only a couple of hundred words, maybe even shorter than that. Like a paragraph or something. Oh okay right okay makes sense. Derek, do you have any?
Derek Owusu: Yeah, I mean the stories of F. Scott Fitzgerald are great. Fanboy! Yeah yeah very very much so. Um, and Borges, his short stories are just mind-blowing like you read them and you just think how did he even come up with—come up with these. Um, and also some short stories that people don't really talk about—Herman Melville. His short stories are great. He's written a really one of my favorite short stories ever is Bartleby, the Scrivener which is just um there's so—you can get so much from it like there's just so much to think about um you can use it as kind of like a—a thought experiment. It's basically a character who starts working in an office and the only thing he just says is "I would prefer not to." So whenever he's asked to do some work he just say "I would prefer not to." And so his boss is kind of trying to figure out what's happening here like how do I respond to respond to this. Um, it's got quite a sad ending but um it's an incredible short story so yeah look for those, yeah. Bartleby, the Scrivener.
Rihanna Dillon: Zainab?
Zainab Juma: My go-to always is Shirley Jackson. Um, I could read The Lottery for the rest of my life. Um, it is so psychologically taut and she achieves so much in such a short space of time with that. But yeah and then and it just it sends you off into a world of Shirley Jackson short stories. Wow. Great recommendations. Um, this is a good question I feel like a quite tough one: "Can you recommend a book where you hate the main character for most of the book and then your opinion is changed by the end?" Derek?
Derek Owusu: This is contentious I guess but Jaime Lannister from Game of Thrones. His redemption arc kind of begins in I think the third book. Um, anyone who's seen the show will know I mean where it's going where it goes and what not but yeah you hate him at the beginning.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah because he does something really bloody awful!
Derek Owusu: He does do quite a few awful things, yeah. And um but the fact that you start to think oh this guy is deep down he is actually—he changes. Yeah he changes, exactly he does there is some heroism about him. And the fact that George R.R. Martin is able to convey that after obviously the horrible thing that he does at the beginning of the book um and the TV show. So yeah probably those, yeah. But it was really hard actually, quite difficult question.
Rihanna Dillon: Yeah it's a really hard question. Sophie did you have anything for this one?
Sophie Mackintosh: Yeah, I found this one really hard, but I ended up thinking about another famous affair novel, The End of the Affair, and yeah I mean it's such a great book I mean it just it's so intense though. I was talking about it with Eliza Clark actually and we did an event together and she was like "It's really dour" and I was like "It is quite dour." I kind of I think I like a very serious dour book. Um, but um Sarah is the woman that the main character Maurice is in love with and I think, you know, at the beginning I by the end of the book I basically just had a totally different view of her because we get her perspective halfway through and I just like love it when a book switches perspectives so that we actually get the perspective of the person who we're supposed to hate. And then we realize oh look there's so much more going on under the surface. Yeah we see the humanity come through. Yeah totally and we realize that we're only getting, you know, every narrator is really unreliable and we're only getting and now we're getting like maybe the more complete story and things are different so.
Rihanna Dillon: That's a great one. That's a great one. Zainab?
Zainab Juma: Just such a hard question. Um, I suppose these are two novels where your loyalties are just thrashed around from chapter to chapter and you just don't know what to feel from moment to moment. The one that I'm going to add in is Javier Marías, it's The Infatuations. Um because who knows! Like who knows um what you're being asked to feel at any given moment. Tell us about it. It's sort of like a relationship that's happening in quite an intimate way but almost at a distance from each other and it's such a kind of like an ungraspable book that there are many ways in which I literally cannot remember what happened I can only remember how I felt in that there are people watching each other and you are never ever certain of anyone's intent, um which Marías is just very good at, at letting you see people but keeping you keeping little things back in a way that's—that's really tantalizing. That's great. That's a good one.
Rihanna Dillon: Um, finally because we have been talking so much about affairs, do you have a favorite book about affairs?
Sophie Mackintosh: Madame Bovary is the classic I think. You know, it's just and it still stands up um it's so—it's so sad though. Speaking of dour books though! I know, exactly I was like actually Permanence is a ray of light in the sad affair literature genre. Disneyland! It really is.
Zainab Juma: A classic answer to that would be Giovanni's Room. I think it's one of the great affair novels. And then a more recent one would be All Fours which I read last year. By Miranda July. Yeah. Which is one of the most sort of bizarre takes on an affair that I've ever read. In a good way? Yeah 100%. It sort of your breaks a lot of the conventions of the affair novel like that Giovanni's Room is so much about like the just the sublimation of desire and then Miranda July's book just again it just kind of stops you short just over and over again. You're like, "What—why are we here? Why are we doing anything?" um which in a way you kind of get to feel across both the sort of conventional affair novel of like of versus perhaps a more contemporary take.
Rihanna Dillon: Great. Derek?
Derek Owusu: I've chosen two again. Sorry! Apologies. The first one is The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera. Um, it's just a great novel, kind of takes a lot of inspiration from Anna Karenina as well which is like the classic affair—affair novel. But also I've chosen Revolutionary Road by Richard Yates. The way Yates describes both characters' affairs is so well done. It's it's just expected you don't ever feel like these are bad people doing a bad thing you kind of just feel the inevitability of it happening. Like without judgment? Without judgment, you know although um I forget the male character's name but when he when he has the affair you just think God this is so pathetic—you know it's going to happen you think but you just think oh this is so pathetic and the way he goes about it the way he kind of um rationalizes it, the way Yates portrays it is like you know a person always knows they're going to have the affair like a long time before it's even happening. Um and they just allow themselves to just kind of go down this road. There's many opportunities to stop it but it just happens. Um and it's done—it's done really really well. Um so yeah that would be my picks, yeah. Revolutionary Road and The Unbearable Lightness of Being.
Rihanna Dillon: Fantastic recommendations from all of you. Thank you so much to Sophie, Derek and Zainab for all of those brilliant suggestions. I hope some of them whet your appetite. And if you want more information on any of the books that we've mentioned today you can find links to all of them in the show notes. If you have a question for the Ask Penguin team you can follow us on Instagram @PenguinUKBooks and message us there. Thank you very much for listening to this episode of Ask Penguin and we'll be back soon. And in the meantime, happy reading! Bye!